Older PCs do not have BIOS support for USB boot. Some offer USB boot, but it just doesn't work. Some machines only have USB support by means of PCI or ISA cards, and these cannot be booted.
All these machines will boot GRML off CD. So, the idea is this - offer a cheatcode to transfer control to a USB/Firewire/SCSI drive. This is not the same thing as using a /home directory on the drive, it means complete Linux system transfer. Mark
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:19:43PM -0700, Mark wrote:
Older PCs do not have BIOS support for USB boot. Some offer USB boot, but it just doesn't work. Some machines only have USB support by means of PCI or ISA cards, and these cannot be booted.
Yes, that sucks :-( BTW: Some motherboards are able to boot from USB after a BIOS upgrade.
All these machines will boot GRML off CD. So, the idea is this - offer a cheatcode to transfer control to a USB/Firewire/SCSI drive. This is not the same thing as using a /home directory on the drive, it means complete Linux system transfer.
You mean, that the CD should only work as a bootstrap? For which purpose? In other words: Which advantages do you see in such a solution?
greets Jimmy
You mean, that the CD should only work as a bootstrap? For which purpose? In other words: Which advantages do you see in such a solution?
The purpose/advantage is to make portable USB hard drives and USB flash sticks even *more* portable - able to boot the systems lacking BIOS support.
The CD should continue working as always (same old GRML), but with an added cheatcode to "pivot root" to an attached USB device. See for example http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Pivot_Root_Install
A lot of live-CDs are doing persistent home, compressed user desktop archives, etc. to imitate a real hard drive effect from CD-ROM. These tricks are great. But a USB hard drive is a real hard drive, so there's no need to imitate. The only remaining problem is how to boot from USB devices. Some machines can, some can't. But all can boot CDs. So, use the CD to help the USB boot for machines that need help.
thank you Mark
On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 03:20:59PM -0700, Mark wrote:
You mean, that the CD should only work as a bootstrap? For which purpose? In other words: Which advantages do you see in such a solution?
The purpose/advantage is to make portable USB hard drives and USB flash sticks even *more* portable - able to boot the systems lacking BIOS support.
Yes, I also searched a lot of hours for a solution. But there seems that there is no solution. I think that the limitation is still in the BIOS, no matter which tricks you try.
The CD should continue working as always (same old GRML), but with an added cheatcode to "pivot root" to an attached USB device. See for example http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Pivot_Root_Install
A lot of live-CDs are doing persistent home, compressed user desktop archives, etc. to imitate a real hard drive effect from CD-ROM. These tricks are great. But a USB hard drive is a real hard drive, so there's no need to imitate. The only remaining problem is how to boot from USB devices. Some machines can, some can't. But all can boot CDs. So, use the CD to help the USB boot for machines that need help.
This would be cool from a technical point of view. But I see no real world example where it would be helpful. USB sticks are used because they are small and you can carry them in your pocket. They are also useful for notebooks without CD-ROM. But when you have to use the CD for booting USB sticks, all advantages are gone. The only remaining advantage I see is that I can have my own customized OS on the stick. Is that your purpose?
greets Jimmy
On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 01:31:10AM +0100, Andreas Gredler wrote:
USB sticks are used because they are small and you can carry them in your pocket. They are also useful for notebooks without CD-ROM. But when you have to use the CD for booting USB sticks, all advantages are gone.
Ever heard about CD-R's with format of a bank card? Should be big enough for a bootloader.
On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 11:01:25PM +0100, Josef Wolf wrote:
On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 01:31:10AM +0100, Andreas Gredler wrote:
USB sticks are used because they are small and you can carry them in your pocket. They are also useful for notebooks without CD-ROM. But when you have to use the CD for booting USB sticks, all advantages are gone.
Ever heard about CD-R's with format of a bank card? Should be big enough for a bootloader.
Sure. But compared to a stick they are not that small. But it's an option, your are right.
greets Jimmy
The only remaining advantage I see is that I can have my own customized OS on the stick. Is that your purpose?
Why do people carry laptop computers? Because they want their own customized OS - desktop, personal notes, tools, office files, email, applications, cipher'd partitions, custom kernels, whatever.
So I want to give the user a Linux system that can boot from any PC. Instead of an expensive and fragile laptop, he gets a rugged USB hard drive.
It seems a fairly easy addition to the cheatcode options that already exist. In some sense the idea generalizes the persistent home concept.
But there seems that there is no solution.
The point of the suggestion is not to 'trick' the BIOS but to work with its constraints. It can't boot USB, so we boot from CD and pivot over to USB.
This would be cool from a technical point of view. But I see no real world example where it would be helpful.
Previous messages discuss the user scenario. Users carry a USB harddrive instead of a personal laptop. It will boot any PC. Sweet!
USB sticks are used because they are small and you can carry them in your pocket.
Same with portable USB hard drives. These have all the advantages without the drawbacks. OK, they are a little bigger and not quite as rugged (depending on model) but win in erms of cost, capacity, write speed, media lifespan, file system options, partitioning, etc.
The Western Digital Passport model is exceptionally rugged for not much cost, in fact cheaper than many USB sticks. It comes in 40 GB and 80 GB capacities. You can drop it on hard concrete.
when you have to use the CD for booting USB sticks, all advantages are gone.
You are right if the choice is only between grml-CD and grml-small for USB stick. Both of those are quasi-read-only ISO Linux systems. There is some 'persistent state' capability on a stick, true. But we have a third choice: grml-big on USB hard drive.
The hard drive is a "real" Linux system, not an ISO image on a stick. Even if the user is a sysadmin and not "granny" there are serious advantages.
Thanks, Mark
On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 07:06:51PM -0700, Mark wrote:
The only remaining advantage I see is that I can have my own customized OS on the stick. Is that your purpose?
So I want to give the user a Linux system that can boot from any PC. Instead of an expensive and fragile laptop, he gets a rugged USB hard drive.
ACK.
It seems a fairly easy addition to the cheatcode options that already exist. In some sense the idea generalizes the persistent home concept.
It shouldn't be that hard, right.
This would be cool from a technical point of view. But I see no real world example where it would be helpful.
Previous messages discuss the user scenario. Users carry a USB harddrive instead of a personal laptop. It will boot any PC. Sweet!
ACK.
when you have to use the CD for booting USB sticks, all advantages are gone.
You are right if the choice is only between grml-CD and grml-small for USB stick. Both of those are quasi-read-only ISO Linux systems. There is some 'persistent state' capability on a stick, true. But we have a third choice: grml-big on USB hard drive.
The hard drive is a "real" Linux system, not an ISO image on a stick. Even if the user is a sysadmin and not "granny" there are serious advantages.
The usb harddrive scenario rocks. I will write some code to test it with my usb harddisk installation. (My notebook is also too stupid to boot from usb) thx for your contribution.
greets Jimmy
Teilnehmer (3)
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Mark